Safety (Moved from BB Remotes)

General Chit Chat about E-Stim. Not just E-Stim Systems, but ErosTek, PES and others.
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Safety (Moved from BB Remotes)

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Admin wrote:Moved from BB E-Stim Remote topic
estim_si wrote:
birdbundy wrote:What do you mean by safety procedures?
With TV programs Health and Safety is a key issue. The units should not be used above the waist, nor by people suffering from eplisy, heart conditions (pacemakers) and pregnacy. We had to lay out the restictions in quite clear terms.
Right - so if I get a TENS or your E-stim (series 1 or 2), I mustn't use it above the waist? I thought TENS units were designed to be used primarily above the waist?[/quote]

The above the waist guidence is more don't pass current across the chest. stating don't play above the waist covers many different positions that could compromise this. hand to hand for instance. a number of TENS units have little or no safety warnings, and some are also designed to be used under strict medical supervision. We also state playing with E-Stim whilst pregnant is not a good idea, but TENS is used for pain relief during pregrancy. We have to err on the side of caution.
birdbundy wrote:Another thing about the below-the-waist safety rule: would I be correct in saying electricity sees the body as a lot of parallel resistors? So if you apply electricity to (for example) the foot, that will actually go through the heart - but just a little - due to the resistors in parallel equation?
It's a very simplistic view (the parallel resistor view is related to Kirchoffs Voltage law) The human body is a very complex entity when it comes to current flow, and even more so when you are considering nerve response modelling. Variable resistance, impedence and a number of other active factors all come into play.
birdbundy wrote:I've seen "electric clothes pegs", where a TENS-like unit (actually the extremely-expensive EROSTek) has been wired to a wooden clothes peg. This is often placed on a nipple. Is this really completely dangerous?
If it's a case of nipple to nipple then there is a risk. However remember that many websites protray activites that don't actually take place due to safety. For instance the cattle prods used on a well know site are known to be modifed to reduce their levels to within safe margins. Remember just because you have seen it on film or a website it doesn't mena it actually happened exactly as seen. Commercial companies want to make good imageery, not open themselves to various lawsuits.
birdbundy wrote:I mean, female breasts don't conduct that well because of the fat, and the nipple is so sensitive that the amount of electricity that would cause stimulation should be small. If the frequency of the electric current is high enough it shouldn't affect the heart beat and the skin-effect should offer some protection too (though that requires 300 MHz or more to really make a difference with human tissue)?
Although we haven't done tests directly on breast tissue, fat has a different level of conductivity to muscle mass. Frequency of the simulation waveform is a core factor (as it the waveform shape) in achieving optimium stimulation, but the frequencies of stimulation are far lower than 300MHz by several levels of magnitude, and the skin effect is only really relivent to strong simple conductors. It is a misnomer that the skin effect has any relation to electrostimulation or even the use of violet wands.
birdbundy wrote:What kind of time-scale is it safe to use for?
We have know people to play for 10's of hours. In that case the issue is with contact points drying out, and numbness creeping in. If it start to feel uncomfortable, then stop.
birdbundy wrote:Is the human body electrolysing an issue?
No as we are using AC waveforms, where the net charge transfer is zero. DC based stimulation does cause issues, this is why most of the major manufacturers of E-Stim equipment, ourselves included use AC biphasic wafeforms.
birdbundy wrote:I'm almost certainly going to buy one of your boxes sometime. Originally I was looking at the Series 1 box... but then I also the ABox, and as Series 2 does both (and some more) it seems like the logical choice. Also - I don't know if any of your boxes or attachments do this - but have you thought of having a zzzap noise to do with the electricity?

In terms of noise It has been mentioned, but for most people the fact the boxes don't make any noise (they might buzz slightly under heavy loads) is a bonus. The Series 2 is a good choice.
birdbundy wrote:Another question - have you heard of the TAZapper? If so, what's your opinion of it? There's always been quite a lot of talk about contiuous current toys like TENS, but capacitor-discharge electricity is rarely discussed (intelligently).
Personally I don't have any experience with it, and therefore cannot comment.

Si


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Re: Safety (Moved from BB Remotes)

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The above the waist guidence is more don't pass current across the chest.
You do sometimes see both nipples being stimulated at the same time. I take it they use a different frequency of AC across each nipple to prevent the two sets from talking across the chest? This isn't something I'm actually likely to do, as I tend to verge on the extreme side of cautious.
It's a very simplistic view (the parallel resistor view is related to Kirchoffs Voltage law) The human body is a very complex entity when it comes to current flow, and even more so when you are considering nerve response modelling. Variable resistance, impedence and a number of other active factors all come into play.
Oh I didn't know about Kirchoffs Voltage law - I'm a scientist, not an engineer. The main flaw I can think of is that human muscles, and the heart *are* capacitors. In fact static-discharge works on the (variable) capacitance of humans (order of magnitude 500pF).
For instance the cattle prods used on a well know site are known to be modifed to reduce their levels to within safe margins. Remember just because you have seen it on film or a website it doesn't mena it actually happened exactly as seen.
Jolt Value 100. It usually takes 4 C cells, but they only use 1 or 2, and replace the others with aluminium to keep the circuit. Given that most prods use a minimum of 2000V (for cattle), I would guess they are using between 500 and 1000V.
Another question - have you heard of the TAZapper? If so, what's your opinion of it? There's always been quite a lot of talk about contiuous current toys like TENS, but capacitor-discharge electricity is rarely discussed (intelligently).
Personally I don't have any experience with it, and therefore cannot comment.
I found out that it is actually another modified electric fly swatter. They've modified the Executioner Fly Zapper. The main difference between this and other fly zappers is that it actually doesn't hurt (at all!) to touch the grill... you can charge it up, put your finger on it and there will be a large bang/spark but all you feel is a gentle flick. It is basically a 40nF capacitor raised to 3000V (though infact the capacitor is rated at 1.5kV... so the active capacitance is less at 3kV). When you made the terminals contact area with the skin smaller, by bending them, you can feel it more.
Unofficial Python API for the E-Stim 2B: https://github.com/fredhatt/estim2bapi
Generating sounds in Python: https://github.com/fredhatt/estimsoundsynth
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Re: Safety (Moved from BB Remotes)

Post by estim_si »

birdburdy wrote: You do sometimes see both nipples being stimulated at the same time. I take it they use a different frequency of AC across each nipple to prevent the two sets from talking across the chest? This isn't something I'm actually likely to do, as I tend to verge on the extreme side of cautious.
If you are using two pairs of contacts and a dual channel unit (Such as our EBox Series 2) then there is no current passing across the chest. However a single contact one one nipple with a single contact on the other is unsafe.

Using different AC frequencies to produce a mixture of waveforms and hence sensations is actually something the Series 2 unit does with the TriPhase Cable.

Si
Last edited by estim_si on Sun Aug 31, 2008 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Safety (Moved from BB Remotes)

Post by hardmasteruk »

birdbundy wrote:I've seen "electric clothes pegs", where a TENS-like unit (actually the extremely-expensive EROSTek) has been wired to a wooden clothes peg. This is often placed on a nipple. Is this really completely dangerous?
I have one of these from some shop in London (Holloway?). A Sub bought them for me but It turned out to be a plastic clothes peg and some drawing pins with the wire twisted around. I was not happy but they did work. I think these were bipolar as both the connections where on the same peg.

I bought some of the E-Slips and they are much better as I can adjust them how tight I want

HM
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Re: Safety (Moved from BB Remotes)

Post by ZippetyDo »

estim_si wrote: Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:51 pm
birdburdy wrote: You do sometimes see both nipples being stimulated at the same time. I take it they use a different frequency of AC across each nipple to prevent the two sets from talking across the chest? This isn't something I'm actually likely to do, as I tend to verge on the extreme side of cautious.
If you are using two pairs of contacts and a dual channel unit (Such as our EBox Series 2) then there is no current passing across the chest. However a single contact one one nipple with a single contact on the other is unsafe.

Using different AC frequencies to produce a mixture of waveforms and hence sensations is actually something the Series 2 unit does with the TriPhase Cable.

Si
There is a TENS method called interferential TENS which as far as I can determine tries to do the same thing with a series of 4 contacts with two channels "crossed" and getting out-of-phase and different frequency signals. The theory (again as I read about it) is that different phases will constructively and destructively interfere to achieve some sort of concentrated effect at the center of the "cross".

-- Zip
Last edited by ZippetyDo on Fri Jul 09, 2021 10:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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