Microphone mode not working as expected

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Re: Microphone mode not working as expected

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A simple tone generator running though what? We test 2B's with a Calibrated digital tone generator (IEC 60942 Class 1) running at 1Khz and we certainly get a response. If you are using a 'simple' tone generator then you also have to take into consideration the effects of the amplifier and the speaker - iphones and mobile phones are very bad at reproducing many frequencies, its how they try to bake the sound feel better - by tweeking certain frequencies.

We also design to work with real life sound not single frequencies - hence the irrelevance of the fundamental speech frequencies - all speech and music is made up of potentially many hundreds of different frequencies (harmonics) that should result in a rich sensational experience.

Lastly the level of the sound does effect the frequency response in ways that are difficult to predict - so you will get a richer response from a room filling musical sound source rather than a tapping finger.

I believe our customer services team have suggested that if you return the unit then they will have it checked, but there is not a lot we can do if we find it is working as designed, and the title of this original thread is 'Microphone not working as expected' - indicating that the situation may be more related to what you feel it should be doing against what it is actually designed to do. Does the Microphone response to sound and produce an output? yes, depending on the sound and the settings of the box. Does the unit response to all sounds in all situations? No. No unit does or will.

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Re: Microphone mode not working as expected

Post by falense »

I am sorry, in what way did I offend you? For my simple tests I used a set of Logitech Z506 speakers connected to my laptop. I got no response once I set the tone frequency higher and I also get no response speaking in a normal voice.

Please note that this is not even my thread. I just hopped in since it seemed relevant to what I was experiencing with my box. And yes, it does not in fact do what I was expecting it to do since the manual clearly states: "The built in microphone has no external connections, and is sensitive enough to pickup a conversation from several feet away. The placement of the microphone is close to the channel A control knob". While I can appreciate quality engineering and a company that takes pride in what they do, so far I really feel like I have been met with mostly resentment for bringing up this issue.
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Re: Microphone mode not working as expected

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falense wrote: Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:22 am I am sorry, in what way did I offend you? For my simple tests I used a set of Logitech Z506 speakers connected to my laptop. I got no response once I set the tone frequency higher and I also get no response speaking in a normal voice.
I'm not sure why you feel your forum statements on here would be considered offensive. We generally remove posts that most people would consider to be offensive. If you feel that someone might disagree with your post then that might be the case, but we would not consider what you have written on this forum to be offensive in any way.
Please note that this is not even my thread. I just hopped in since it seemed relevant to what I was experiencing with my box. And yes, it does not in fact do what I was expecting it to do since the manual clearly states: "The built in microphone has no external connections, and is sensitive enough to pickup a conversation from several feet away. The placement of the microphone is close to the channel A control knob". While I can appreciate quality engineering and a company that takes pride in what they do, so far I really feel like I have been met with mostly resentment for bringing up this issue.
It is. It does depend on where you are in relation to your 2B, even what it is sitting on (I find mine is rubbish when on a duvet!), but it responds to my voice, and does for a number of others who have posted on here....and as an example here is a 2B in action in the real world in microphone mode https://youtu.be/wkPRzhYoRtk

I'm a little confused as to why you feel there is resentment. I am aware of your private messages to our CS team, and if you hadn't mentioned it here then I would have not responded here but there is no certainly no 'resentment' - just possibly a little bit of confusion - might I ask if english is your first language, as it might be a case that the words resentment and offend translates into something slightly different?

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Re: Microphone mode not working as expected

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admin wrote: Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:00 pm I'm not sure why you feel your forum statements on here would be considered offensive. We generally remove posts that most people would consider to be offensive. If you feel that someone might disagree with your post then that might be the case, but we would not consider what you have written on this forum to be offensive in any way.

It is. It does depend on where you are in relation to your 2B, even what it is sitting on (I find mine is rubbish when on a duvet!), but it responds to my voice, and does for a number of others who have posted on here....and as an example here is a 2B in action in the real world in microphone mode https://youtu.be/wkPRzhYoRtk

I'm a little confused as to why you feel there is resentment. I am aware of your private messages to our CS team, and if you hadn't mentioned it here then I would have not responded here but there is no certainly no 'resentment' - just possibly a little bit of confusion - might I ask if english is your first language, as it might be a case that the words resentment and offend translates into something slightly different?
Thank you for the video. That was actually really helpful, as mentioned, I am having troubles to get my to respond to anything but the deepest bass and while I can make it trigger with speech it is really hard to do so. The unit in the video appears to be significantly more sensitive than the one I have here. I tried putting it on a hard surface, this does not actually seem to make a difference with mine (it is equally bad). I am concerned about returning it since I have to do so on my own cost, and the indications I have gotten so far from CS is that "it appears to be working", which I interpret as it is unlikely that they will find a fault if I return it. I do however notice a significant different between playing the same music in stereo mode and microphone mode, stereo mode is more sensitive (which is just an anecdotal comment on my part)

English it not my first language, but I am quite sure that resentment is what I mean: "the feeling of displeasure or indignation at some act, remark, person, etc., regarded as causing injury or insult.". In this case I am wondering if there is an underlying resentment for pointing out areas for improvement or flaws with the product. It appears to me that this is a company and a team that takes great pride in their product and what they do, and as such it appears to me that critique of the product is met with disbelief and distrust. This is a result of the feedback I have gotten where my observations are dismissed because I do not use the right tests or the right equipment. I may, however, be reading too much into simple statements like yours "A simple tone generator running though what?" which I read as critique of the way I tried to debug the problem.
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Re: Microphone mode not working as expected

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Thank you for the video. That was actually really helpful, as mentioned, I am having troubles to get my to respond to anything but the deepest bass and while I can make it trigger with speech it is really hard to do so. The unit in the video appears to be significantly more sensitive than the one I have here. I tried putting it on a hard surface, this does not actually seem to make a difference with mine (it is equally bad). I am concerned about returning it since I have to do so on my own cost, and the indications I have gotten so far from CS is that "it appears to be working", which I interpret as it is unlikely that they will find a fault if I return it. I do however notice a significant different between playing the same music in stereo mode and microphone mode, stereo mode is more sensitive (which is just an anecdotal comment on my part)
The unit in the video was an 'off the shelf unit', i.e. with no modifications, used in a store with a standard shop audio system, although it was playing quite loud. Stereo mode is more sensitive as it does not have to cater for ambient noise and is working with a fixed 1v P-P input, where as ythe microphone needs to operate over a wider range of sensitivites.
English it not my first language, but I am quite sure that resentment is what I mean: "the feeling of displeasure or indignation at some act, remark, person, etc., regarded as causing injury or insult.". In this case I am wondering if there is an underlying resentment for pointing out areas for improvement or flaws with the product.
Nope there is no resentment.
It appears to me that this is a company and a team that takes great pride in their product and what they do, and as such it appears to me that critique of the product is met with disbelief and distrust.
We do take pride on what we do and yes when we receive criticism we do take it seriously, as after all we stand by our products - is that a fault then possibly yes. But if a customer says they are having an issue, then our first question is 'what could cause this', not 'is the customer lying'.

This is a result of the feedback I have gotten where my observations are dismissed because I do not use the right tests or the right equipment. I may, however, be reading too much into simple statements like yours "A simple tone generator running though what?" which I read as critique of the way I tried to debug the problem.
Your observations were not dismissed, but we did point out that using a 'laptop and speakers' to measure frequency response will not give a realistic and repeatable result comparable to our own testing systems. We asked you to perform a simple test that does not require any equipment to test something that normally has two failure modes - It either works or it doesn't. You then commented that we failed to provide you with further 'tests' to perform. Testing beyond that requires a greater understanding of the hardware and the existence of test equipment capable of generating and measuring signals consistently, neither of which you appeared to have access to.

We have offered to retest your unit, and will refund the postage etc if a fault is found, but based on your evidence we feel it is more a case of the microphone is not responding the way you feel it should be, but it is responding the way it was designed to. We have looked at the microphone system in the various betas, and continue to do so, so possibly an alternative is to consider playing with one of the Betas, another of which is due out before the end of this year.

Lastly I fear this thread has now been inadvertently hijacked from the original posting, so I would ask you to continue any further correspondence regarding your particular unit to email, as splitting such discussion between emails and a public forum is both confusing and counter productive, and not all the CS team read the forums all the time.

Si
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Re: Microphone mode not working as expected

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falense wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:27 am Thank you for the video. That was actually really helpful, as mentioned, I am having troubles to get my to respond to anything but the deepest bass and while I can make it trigger with speech it is really hard to do so. The unit in the video appears to be significantly more sensitive than the one I have here. I tried putting it on a hard surface, this does not actually seem to make a difference with mine (it is equally bad).
I guess it is possible that the music is hitting the sweet spot for response, after all I have tried all sorts of music and some works really well and others don't. And the Admin does mention that it was quite loud adn on a stereo system. I haev noticed there is quite a difference between the response I get using my iPhone and using my stereo (which has some pretty high quality speakers) using the same track, so clearly there is something to do with the frequencies and the response of the microphone.
falense wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:27 am I am concerned about returning it since I have to do so on my own cost, and the indications I have gotten so far from CS is that "it appears to be working", which I interpret as it is unlikely that they will find a fault if I return it.
I would suggest that the reason you are getting those indications from Customer Service is because, and I presume based on what you have told them, they do not believe there is an issue, but at least they are trying to work with you by offering you the opportunity to return it. Yes you have to pay to send it back but that is no different from a lot of companies, and they are even saying that if it is faulty they will refund your postage so what is wrong with their offer? I think it is pretty good service. After all would you prefer them to either point blank refuse to help you or let you send it back knowing that you would be wasting your money and then you would have a reason to resent them. The choice is yours, yes it is a gamble, but it is only a gamble if you think you are right despite the information they are giving you. Is it not possible that your expectation of the response was too high and that the reality is not living up to what you wanted? I don't see how that is their fault. Yes the manual says it responds to speech, and it does. You yourself have said that. Ok you say you find it difficult to get it to do it, but others don't so I do not see any issues with what they have written in the manual. I am sure if you had contacted them with your specific requirements they could have given you more detailed advice. They certainty did with me when I was asking about the ABox. Customer Services were very helpful. After all a manual is a set of instructions on how to use it, not a detailed breakdown of specifications.
falense wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:27 am I do however notice a significant different between playing the same music in stereo mode and microphone mode, stereo mode is more sensitive (which is just an anecdotal comment on my part)
I think the Admin has explained that one but it is pretty obvious that you would get better response from the Line in than the microphone. Personally I rarely use the Microphone as I prefer to use certain types of music (Trance and Garage) for stimulation but I hate listening to it.
falense wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:27 am In this case I am wondering if there is an underlying resentment for pointing out areas for improvement or flaws with the product.
I fail to understand how you can possibly say that. They have entered into a public conversation with you about this issue as well as presumably there Customer Services contacting you, and they offer this forum and the Developers Forum where they actively ask for constructive criticism so that they can develop their products. So if they had an issue with suggestions for improvement why would they do that. That said I have not seen any suggestions from you about the product, but simply complaining that it is not working the way you want it to, despite them telling you that it appears to be doing what it should. How is that pointing out an improvement? The Admin even says that they are actively looking at the Microphone mode so they obviously take on board what people say about there products, this is not what I would describe as resentment.
falense wrote: Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:27 am It appears to me that this is a company and a team that takes great pride in their product and what they do, and as such it appears to me that critique of the product is met with disbelief and distrust. This is a result of the feedback I have gotten where my observations are dismissed because I do not use the right tests or the right equipment. I may, however, be reading too much into simple statements like yours "A simple tone generator running though what?" which I read as critique of the way I tried to debug the problem.
I would say that they have every right to take pride in their products after all it a great reputation as one of the best high-end products on the market. Obviously we have not seen all correspondence, but nothing posted here, in my opinion, suggests anything like disbelief or distrust. Have they actually said they don't believe you? Not as far as I can see, what they have suggested is a simple test for you to do. You gave them the result and they have expressed their opinion that there does not appear to be anything wrong. I would have to ask you who knows more about the product, the guys who sell it and in the case of the Admin designed it, or the customer who has just got it and is still learning about it.
What appears to have been said to you about your attempts to 'debug' the problem is simply seeking clarification on what you have used to test your 2B to come up with some of the conclusions you have. I see nothing wrong in this, and it would appear that all the Admin has done is point out that the method you have used is not reliable and certainly not as accurate as their testing process. Again what is wrong with that? Do you seriously think that you know more about the 2B and how it should respond than the guy who designed it? Unfortunately the phrase 'A little knowledge is a dangerous thing' springs to mind here as clearly you believe you know what you are talking about yet even I, with limited knowledge, am sitting here thinking that there are issues with what you are doing. These guys are experts in what they do as they designed it. It is not as if they just buy a cheap TENS machine and sell it as an electroplay product, they know how it works and how it should work, so why is it so hard for you to believe that they might actually be right and it is you that are wrong ?

My opinion, you are definitely reading too much into what is being said, and if anyone is being defensive I would say it is you. You bought the 2B thinking that it would do one thing but have now found it doesn't do it quite as you expected it to and now you are trying to blame the company who made it, rather than considering that the error lies with you and not them.

What exactly is it you want them to do? Clearly they are listening to you and have offered you the option to return the unit for testing, so how is that dismissing you. I have bought similar products from other companies and when I have contacted them about real issues with their unit (namely not turning on or a mode not working at all) I have either been completely ignored or told there is nothing I can do now as I have used it. So the mere fact that they are offering you help in establishing if there is an issue or not and also offering to have it back for testing says they are actually taking your issue seriously.

The way I see it the options are:-
1) Send it back and have them test it, but you run the risk of them simply confirming what they appear to have already told you, that it is working as it should. Or they find an issue and then you get your costs back and a unit working the way it should.
Or
2) Accept that what they are saying is correct and that it is working as designed and that in fact you had higher expectations about the sensitivity of the microphone than the reality. They have said they are working on the microphone mode and so there may be improvements in the pipeline so you could always try as suggested the betas.

If you were buying the 2B purely for the microphone and you wanted a specific response then if it was me I would have been talking to them about it ahead of making the purchase. (I am presuming you didn't as there is not mention in your posts about you doing so and being told something different to the reality) Personally if the microphone was the key thing I would have looked for a different unit that had an external microphone as this is likely to be more sensitive then a built in one.

I might appear biased and perhaps I am but I have had products from E-Stim Systems for over 10 years and always found them very helpful and to produce high quality products. I have products from other manufacturers and the support i have had from those companies has been terrible in comparison to the help and advice I get from these guys. I speak as I find based on what is posted here yes there might be issues with the microphone mode in its entirety but they are working on it, and in this particular case they seem to be doing all they can to help you by being honest about your options and your unit. What more can they really do?
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Re: Microphone mode not working as expected

Post by icy »

Hello,

i am new to the estim area ( but a former emplyee of a big german tens manufacturer)

With stereo mode, i have a good input signal, but with microphone.. nothing (whatever i used as source )


Chris
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