New edition of the legendary ET 312-B

[Deltus1]

I don't want to advertise, but I would like to point out that ErosTec has recently launched a slightly optimised replica of the ET 312-B: MK 312-BT

https://erostek.com/products/mk-312bt-power-unit

The price is a handsome $ 799. I guess there are some fans of the 312 who are willing to do that?
I have seen used 312-B`s being offered on ebay for similar sums.

[Riddle]

I am disappointed with ErosTek for claiming the MK312BT as their own design and selling it at such a high price.

https://github.com/CrashOverride85/mk312-bt

To me, modernizing the design during the time the 312 was discontinued makes much better sense. Of course, they are free to do whatever they fancy.

[admin]

Personal opinion/rant....

It's a pity so many people think it's perfectly acceptable to rip a design off, then add a couple of component changes, or move the position of an insulator, and claim it as something new and wonderful. Yup the ET312 is Eric's design and he is free do to what he wants with it, and change what he wants, I have no issue with that, but the ethics behind others ripping off any design simply means those of us who are working in this industry and depending on it for a livelihood, and trying to develop something new will simply hit a point and say fuck it, why bother? We either spend more time and money attempting to protect a design which is a race to the bottom when we could be adding more functionality, or we simply lock down the hatches and stop providing any information regarding products. Or we simply find an alternative and we go off and find something else to do.

It's interesting that all of the 312 copies demonstrate that no one has full access to the firmware code, including ErosTek, so people might be purchasing a new unit in a different case, but in the long run its still a unit with zero support and zero future.

Si

[Riddle]

… It's a pity so many people think it's perfectly acceptable to rip a design off…

It's interesting that all of the 312 copies demonstrate that no one has full access to the firmware code, including ErosTek, so people might be purchasing a new unit in a different case, but in the long run its still a unit with zero support and zero future.

Si

I certainly agree with you on the design rip-offs and the mess that is the ET312, Mk312BT, and other variants. The first thing to bother me was how the ET312 was discontinued due to ancient parts being discontinued. As I understand it, the MK312BT was a community project created to allow continued use of the design after the original was discontinued. This does rip-off of the original design which bothers me. Also, the effort to copy the original design would have been much better spent on a new design without obsolete parts. So, the MK312BT became popular while original ET312’s with worn-out MF pots were selling on EBay well above their original new price. So, ErosTek decides to resume 312 production with the new “MK312BT” model with all descriptions matching the community MK312BT as another obvious rip-off. Again, something better was possible, but ignored.

Of note, the new MF pot used that allows current production is currently obsolete and in short supply.

So, the 312 firmware is the silliest part of the whole thing: no one has the firmware source code cementing bugs and an obsolete processor into the box. Is anyone going to correct this problem? No! Just continue with the whole mess.

[estim4fun]

I didn't get a look in details, but, in general, a microcontroller becomes obsolete, but its assembly language is used by an entire scale of products.

Disassembling the binary makes a source a bit difficult to understand. However they hasn't wanted to get the algos, they has wanted to see the interfaces. That point is easy as one has the reference of the MC, then one has the datasheet, then one has the programation of the interfaces. Then it can be adapted to the new one.

I suspect Erostek to not have any data of the design as the outsourcer, who designed it, kept it. Then when a component in the parts list is obsolete, it is finished for them.

The reverse engineering and the little modifications are difficult to estimate for a new outsourcer. They waited some clone project with GPL licence to resume the production ... for free

The price is not that extravagant as 20 years ago we all paid 500. The 5 years disruption give the feeling of a huge raise.

[Riddle]

…
The price is not that extravagant as 20 years ago we all paid 500. The 5 years disruption give the feeling of a huge raise.

The computer (32 bit 850MHz, 256MB RAM, 40GB HDD) that I purchased in 2000 cost me $2000. Won’t pay over $100 now for something much better (Raspberry Pi Zero 2, 64 GB SD card?). In my opinion, the 2B is so much better and $200 less expensive with the full accessory pack. Granted, the 2B is about a decade newer and lacks the size and lead battery. Still, I wonder what a completely new device design would be if brought to market next year. Would it be $400 and so much better again?

[donf]

I recently purchased the EROSTEK MK-312BT power unit and it works just fine, exactly like the original 312-B unit. The only downside that I can see is the price at $800, and probably the battery, as it still uses a sealed lead-acid battery when it should be using a Lithium Ion type, but I'm not complaining as I'm happy with it. I also have the 2B which also works well too. However, if I had to pick the best power unit out there, it would be the 3rdH Player made in France by the 3rd Hand. It is a superior unit in every way, and I understand they'll be coming out with a replacement in about 6 months which should be even better.

[Deltus1]

However, if I had to pick the best power unit out there, it would be the 3rdH Player made in France by the 3rd Hand. It is a superior unit in every way, and I understand they'll be coming out with a replacement in about 6 months which should be even better.

That's very interesting! What makes the 3rdH so good for you?

He is hardly known and commented on.

[Onwrikbaar]

I don't want to advertise, but I would like to point out that ErosTec has recently launched a slightly optimised replica of the ET 312-B: MK 312-BT

When ErosTek announced the discontinuation of the ET312B, Eric Forbes wrote about the development of a new ErosTek power box: "We are working on it. Stay Tuned." That was several years ago and it does not seem to have materialised. Which is too bad, because (as Si observed) the ET312 firmware is at a technological dead end. ET312 clones may use a few modern components, a better battery and a smaller form factor, but the firmware mercilessly shows its age: it runs on an obsolete 8-bit controller, is tailored to inefficient hardware, only generates TENS-style pulses, organises the electrodes into 'channels' and offers a meagre twenty or so different routines. Creating new routines for it is ridiculously difficult and there is no control down to the pulse level. Its audio handling is primitive. Continuing to use this firmware for 'new' boxes effectively means to remain stuck in the 20th century.

When Kink.com's Deep-by-Kink box was announced over two years ago, it promised to come with several innovative features, but by now so much of its new stuff was either postponed or dropped altogether, that it will basically be just a 4-channel ET312, albeit with somewhat better remote control support. So for now my money is on the Coyote v3 and Estim Systems' successor to the 2B.

[admin]

The problem with any unit design is people want a box that fits THEIR requirements, and anything else for everyone else is not of interest - that is the polite version.
As a manufacturer we have to create a unit that works and is commercially viable - it will sell, not just from us but also through distributors and retail stores, as well as offering something for as many users as possible. We also have a policy of real long term support so we also need to create items that will last. So the latest all singing all dancing processor might be a good idea, until its discontinued for the next all singing all dancing version. 8 bit is fine, I can code anything to work in 8 bit that would work in 32 bit, and the hardware requirements and thus power are substantially less.

As to asking for things like individual pulse control, its something that we have never been asked for and would be far down the list - 95% of our users don't even worry about the contents of a session file, let alone the ability to control a single pulse. As to things like channels - well most people understand their use, so why not stick to what is well understood. TENS pulse systems work and are safe and again for 99.9999% of users they wouldn't be able to tell the difference - the closest we generally get is one waveform feels smoother or coarser than another, and again that is what most users based on our experience want. Do you really care what waveform is used to inject fuel into a fuel injected car? I just like to feel the response when I press the pedal, and the company making that system probably spent a lot on it's development, more than a couple of people reading social media posts and calling it research.

At the end of the day people want a unit that works, lasts and is not too expensive. The problem is everyone is different and to create something that works for most people is very hard. I know we have been trying to do it for the last 20 years!!. There will always be specialists who want control of every aspect, but that is difficult to offer at a commercial level because we have to support every element, give you individual pulse control, but have in locks so you cannot damage a box or a user, and you complain that you don't have control.. but we have to protect our users and our product - we after all do carry product liability insurance and offer a lifetime guarantee - I bet none of the home built creators do.

I can and will repair a unit that was made by us 20 years ago, we can still directly access every component or it's equlivent that's the benefit of creating the product ourselves rather than farming it out to a third party who them disappears. I don't think any other e-stim company can offer that.

If you want a total level of control and 99.9999% don't then I suggest a commercial unit is not for you. Any design is a series of compromises the problem is the decisions I make as a designer then don't marry up with what you want and the end result is no end of complaints about the unit being crap/shit/rubbish etc etc. Generally all e-stim units will offer something for someone, the problem is finding that unit that offers you exactly what you are looking for, and a lot of time even the user doesn't know the answer, so if you want total control then your only option is to learn the principles and create your own unit - and then let everyone tell you why you are wrong - its a fun game, but can be rewarding

Si